Curse

Brother Andicus · Nov 02, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

I'll start by saying that the AI update was in my opinion the totally right thing to do. If i'm a monk monster my job isnt to stand and get hit till I die, my job is to keep myself and my party alive. If i'm a melee monster, my job is to kill my opponent, which wont be achieved by bashing a warrior with 116 armour and probably stances as well.

What this update does force people to do is play with a bit of co-ordination.

There are things that have been used in GvG for a LONG time that deal with melee pressure, kiting, there is no reason why such things shouldnt also be used in PvE. PvE players however need to accept that there are more classes(and utilites for each class) than Tanks, Nukers and Healers.

Here is a list of some common counters PvE'ers might like to try before begging to get the AI nerfed.

Aegis
Guardian
Shelter
Union
Displacement
Shadowsong
Ward Against Melee
Ward Against Foes
Blinding Flash
Enervating Charge
Shock
Gale
Blurred Vision
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
Ice Prison
Crippling Anguish
Spirit of Failure
Distortion
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Price of Failure
Reckless Haste
Shadow of Fear
Faintheartedness
Enfeeble
Wail of Doom
Crippling Shot
Pin Down
Barbed Trap
Spike Trap
Dust Trap
Whirling Defense
Devestating hammer
Hammer Bash
Counter Blow
Shields Up
Watch Yourself
Eviserate->Axe Rake
Hamstring

The list is far from being comprehensive, but shows a good many skills that would have excellent results in PvE, but never seem to make it out of PvP

Spura · Nov 02, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Most of the confusion and anger in this discussion comes from the fact that there was another AI Update on the 31st. Before that date, yes the game was okay. The earlier areas were easy while the later game areas were difficult.

Did it update? I thought I sensed a rise in difficulty, but shruged it off. I finished the game before it and I did every mission in first try except a few(I got siege nuked in graveyard). Before I was able to take on 4 groups of demons at once, now only 2(though I am working on improving my build).

Generally problem is that people have sucky builds. Most people have totally default hero configurations and their own character uses those starter skills you get for free. Heck even henchies often have better builds than players and their heroes. Consequently I hear a LOT of whine how hard the missions are in alliance chat and that with simple ones like Consulate Docks. For instance when someone complained that he keeps getting wiped in second stage of last mission before vortex, I went to help him and party never went below 80% HP with exception of 4 or 5 spikes that got characters down to 30% or 40%. So obviously people just need better builds.

This is all the fault of farming. 90% of people are completely unable to make their own builds that would work. While I was playing with tons of different builds since factions came out(and it took me some time to make an assassin that was good damage and didn't go down every time ele boss decided to spike him), most people just finished the campaign, then took wikipedia build for boss/oro/55 HP farm and did that for about half a year while building their piggybank. That gives you no skill whatsoever, using a specialised build to farm a homogenous groups of monsters(all melee, all elemental damage, whatever) Then nightfall came out and they were floundering in the dark, no builds on wiki they could copy. Nightfall monsters in later areas are usually combined arms of several professions and thus require more than your dolyak signet gladiator stance wamo.

Funny when people in outposts try to put together allhuman group, when most people won't play that and they fail to realise most of these human players are worse than heroes.

Kais Unduli · Nov 02, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

I have not had any problems at all playing with my ritualist. I usually have Olias and Jin with me; Olias is set as a minion master, Jin is set with an interrupt build. It's amazing how well the two work in tandem together.

Oh yea, I rarely bring a melee hench or hero with me. Why? Maybe because I took the time to learn to play without an "aggro magnet" that everyone else seems to depend on. The few times that I have used a tank/dervish/assassin in my teams, I still rarely have trouble.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

There is a problem, the henchies on a few occasions, while I was walking to an enemy and my aggro bubble went off the henchies, they all followed me, came right up to me and got nuked by the Deep Freeze and what not. Now my aggro bubble was just outside of their green circle location markers, there was no need for them to run up to me like that and die. Those flags are out of the question, if I would have used them there, they would have not healed me at all cause I wasn't close enough to them.

Instead of running all the way up to me, they could easily just get far enough to be in my range instead of having to run all the way in next to me and die, that was extremely annoying.

Ole Man Bourbon · Nov 02, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

What cues the enemy targetting? Class, skill-use, or AL? If it's the last one, maybe I'll just stick with 55AL on my Dervish and keep the aggro on myself.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ole Man Bourbon

What cues the enemy targetting? Class, skill-use, or AL? If it's the last one, maybe I'll just stick with 55AL on my Dervish and keep the aggro on myself.

I think it's mostly AL, however they seem to be going after my monks, even with other 60 AL people around, although they do hit those guys as well. Maybe a tiny bit of class is integrated into it. However, once DP sets it, they always target the person with the highest DP regardless of AL. If it's the same DP, then it goes to AL again.

Alleji · Nov 02, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

So this is what an 'intelligent monster' thinks: attack low armor/if attacked run away until not being chased. Wow if that's what PvP is all about as well, I'm sure I'm not missing anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Really, how is this like PvP? I never PvP, but if PvP is all about chasing each other and running away instead of actually casting spells or having a strategy, I 'm glad I'm a PvE'er

Quote:

I can't see what's wrong with the AI we had before Nighfall came out, caster monsters didn't run away but actually attacked and used skills, and warriors actually used their armor of 80 points to endure damage (geez they don't have all the armor spells, protection stances and high armor for nothing, they are MADE to take hits)

All I can to say to this is: lol.

Yes, that's what PvP is all about. It's about not being an idiot. Just think about it... I'm a monk and I see a giant honking warrior with an axe charging at me - what am I going to do, spam orison on myself and hope the warrior goes away or run?
(If you answered 'spam orison', you're wrong. Just so we're clear.)

Now, if I'm playing a warrior in PvP (or against new intelligent AI) and I bring a standard PvE bar of Sever, Gash, some bad skill, 2 stances, Healing Hands and Rebirth, obviously I'm not going to kill a running target. But if my attack chain is Shock, Eviscerate, Axe Rake, Bulls Strike, Exec, or something along those lines, that monk sure as hell isn't going to go anywhere.

What else do warriors do in PvP? They switch targets. And it's much easier to do against the new AI than against real players. Some people said that enemy monks run two aggro circles away from them. That's the difference between the AI and good players. Human monks stop kiting when you get off their ass and start healing. So exploit the AI. Whack a monk, get it to run, switch to nearby caster and dump your adrenaline on it. That caster shouldn't be standing by the time AI monk turns around.

Third, if enemy warriors are giving your squishies trouble, a warrior can protect the backline actively, rather than passively tanking. (This isn't normally a warrior's job, and it doesn't apply much to PvE where fights last one minute instead of ten or twenty, but you can do it nonetheless) Knock down and cripple enemy warriors to let your casters move around.

Lastly, your 80 (100) armor isn't useless. It may not be soaking up as much damage anymore, but it still acts as a passive deterrent. Why are warriors never actively targeted in PvP (other than spikes)? Precisely because of their 100 armor - they're nearly impossible to kill while opposing monks are still standing. People prefer to mitigate warriors' damage with hexes such as faintheartedness or spirit of failure, blinding flash spam, etc, rather than killing them.

These things aren't so difficult. You just have to get out of "tank" mindset and into the "warrior" mindset and change up your bar a bit. If you still say "but that's like PvP, I didn't buy this game to play PvP", you're wrong. It's not PvP. PvP is a lot more complicated. You simply don't want to play a game with realistic combat. In which case you should perhaps try Neverwinter Nights or Super Mario.

EDIT: I find it amusing that PvErs are complaining that AI became smarter and anet is making PvE like PvP, while PvP forums are full of people ranting: "get heroes the **** out of PvP, if I wanted to fight dumb NPCs all day, I'd go play PvE"

Spydergst1 · Nov 02, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Tank's chase the monk and casters off. Once they run a decant distance turn and everyone focus on tanks (spike the mosters tanks) before the monk returns. 6 or 8 ppl spiking a tank can kill him in a few seconds before the monk can come back and heal

Or try 2 tanks. one tank chases the monster monks and casters off and the second tank stays with his grp and spike the monster tanks.

Dravyn · Nov 02, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I don't really understand all of this..I've almost finished Nightfall and I've had none of these problems

The only mobs that run from me are healer mobs, and I either snare them or switch targets..no problem so far. My hero's only kite when near death, and so I can't blame them. Anyone using the attitude stances on your hero's bar?

I can't believe people are complaining about money and farming..I started my paragon with nothing, had 10k by the time i left Istan, and now, after buying all my armors, have more money than I know what to do with..and I haven't sold a single item that didn't go to an npc merchant.

I personally love everything about Nightfall, i think the heros kick ass, and I pray to god they dont' listen to all this whining and change anything.

Muse of Shadows · Nov 02, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

All I can to say to this is: lol.

Yes, that's what PvP is all about. It's about not being an idiot. Just think about it... I'm a monk and I see a giant honking warrior with an axe charging at me - what am I going to do, spam orison on myself and hope the warrior goes away or run?
(If you answered 'spam orison', you're wrong. Just so we're clear.)

Now, if I'm playing a warrior in PvP (or against new intelligent AI) and I bring a standard PvE bar of Sever, Gash, some bad skill, 2 stances, Healing Hands and Rebirth, obviously I'm not going to kill a running target. But if my attack chain is Shock, Eviscerate, Axe Rake, Bulls Strike, Exec, or something along those lines, that monk sure as hell isn't going to go anywhere.

What else do warriors do in PvP? They switch targets. And it's much easier to do against the new AI than against real players. Some people said that enemy monks run two aggro circles away from them. That's the difference between the AI and good players. Human monks stop kiting when you get off their ass and start healing. So exploit the AI. Whack a monk, get it to run, switch to nearby caster and dump your adrenaline on it. That caster shouldn't be standing by the time AI monk turns around.

Third, if enemy warriors are giving your squishies trouble, a warrior can protect the backline actively, rather than passively tanking. (This isn't normally a warrior's job, and it doesn't apply much to PvE where fights last one minute instead of ten or twenty, but you can do it nonetheless) Knock down and cripple enemy warriors to let your casters move around.

Lastly, your 80 (100) armor isn't useless. It may not be soaking up as much damage anymore, but it still acts as a passive deterrent. Why are warriors never actively targeted in PvP (other than spikes)? Precisely because of their 100 armor - they're nearly impossible to kill while opposing monks are still standing. People prefer to mitigate warriors' damage with hexes such as faintheartedness or spirit of failure, blinding flash spam, etc, rather than killing them.

These things aren't so difficult. You just have to get out of "tank" mindset and into the "warrior" mindset and change up your bar a bit. If you still say "but that's like PvP, I didn't buy this game to play PvP", you're wrong. It's not PvP. PvP is a lot more complicated. You simply don't want to play a game with realistic combat. In which case you should perhaps try Neverwinter Nights or Super Mario.

EDIT: I find it amusing that PvErs are complaining that AI became smarter and anet is making PvE like PvP, while PvP forums are full of people ranting: "get heroes the **** out of PvP, if I wanted to fight dumb NPCs all day, I'd go play PvE"

Agree'd - mostly

From what I have seen of the current ai, you cant effectivly chase off the enemy monks - whenever i try, they stop running as soon as they are out of my agro bubble, and the npc's of mine that are CONSTANTLY dying are the warriors, not the casters, because my casters are to busy running in random dirrections to do anything else (not all the time, but frequent enough to pi** me off).

I deffently agree with how you say a warrior should be played - I almost never tank, I hate tanks and farming - both far to passive and booring.

Last point - heroes should still be allowed in PvP, however it should be limmited to 1 per player, and Halls should be changed back to 8player teams.